BR-Navigation NSU-Trial NSU-Trial: Courtroom Minutes of the 2nd Day of the Trial, May 14th, 2013

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In the morning of the second day of the hearing, numerous motions by defense counsel and joint plaintiffs were read out and discussed vigorously for hours. The indictment was not read out until late in the afternoon.

By: Hans Pfeifer, Christoph Arnowski, Thies Marsen, Ayca Tolun, Matthias Reiche, Holger Schmidt, Paul-Elmar Jöris

Status: 05/14/2013| archive

At the beginning of the day of the trial, the press accreditation procedure was criticized, among other things, as was the size of the courtroom, which was said to be too small for the trial. However, all applications are rejected. Only in the late afternoon does the court come to the main issue: the reading of the indictment. Judge Götzl's remark that the Keupstraße (Cologne) case could be separated from the hearing if the number of joint plaintiffs in this case increased caused a stir. Maik E., twin brother of the co-defendant André E., is present again, as is the well-known neo-Nazi Daniel Thönnessen.

ARD reporter on what is happening in the courtroom

(Hans Pfeifer, DW) Maik E is waiting among the first 20 (inside). He is accompanied by a young man, type Autonomous Nationalist, pierced lip, jeans and sports shoes. So E. has changing companions. (Christoph Arnowski, BR) Everything was very calm today, control was less strict than I had imagined. All in all it took a maximum of two minutes, like at the airport plus an additional scan in a small shed, but not very strict. However, if I had to give up my bunch of keys, it could ultimately be used as a projectile. Maik E. is now sitting in the grandstand. Currently only the police and pool teams/photographers in the hall. (Christoph Arnowski, BR) The three Zschäpe defenders have just arrived and are setting up their laptops. The cross hangs over the door through which public prosecutors and other parties involved in the process normally enter (i.e. on the right as seen from the Beucher stand). Now the federal prosecutors are there too.(Thies Marsen, BR)One of the neo-Nazis present in the courtroom is the former activist of the banned "comradeship Aachener Land" (KAL), Daniel Thönnessen.(Christoph Arnowski, BR)ZDF colleagues were filming Thönnessen, seen from the hall he is sitting on the far right in the second row, actually easy to recognize by the black buttons in his ears. (Christoph Arnowski, BR) 9.15 a.m. Visitors and press grandstand practically full, it looks different on the seats of the joint plaintiffs. I can't really see into it, but most of the chairs I can see are empty.(Christoph Arnowski, BR)André E. wearing a black "AC/DC" shirt, like his twin brother, with whom he is also smiling and proud shirt exchanges looks. The co-defendants Holger G. and Carsten S. are also there, G. is covered, head with a gray cap and file cover, is bent over, S. has pulled a blue hoodie over his head, is sitting at the table and looks down, hands folded. E. speaks to his defense attorney, has dark sunglasses on.

9:28 a.m. Wohlleben and Zschäpe are still missing. (Hans Pfeifer, DW) André E. has no documents with him. Just his sunglasses and a pack of throat drops. He appears self-confident again: leans back in the dock and looks up at his brother Maik in the visitors' gallery. They laugh at each other briefly. Act like it's all great fun. Of course it's also reading coffee grounds, but somehow twin brother Maik seems proud of his accused brother. (Ayca Tolun, WDR) 9:00 a.m. Court President Karl Huber at the grandstand door, first talking to the police officers, then to colleagues. In the morning there was little rush to the spectators' gallery, about 50 people, some of them journalists, including Turkish ones, but no representatives of the plaintiff's newspaper "Sabah" were present, and so far no one from "Hürriyet". Instead today representatives from the newspapers "Zaman" and "Evrensel" as well as from the Turkish state broadcaster TRT and from the Turkish news agency Anadolu (all about the viewer contingent). The Turkish TV news channels are now also missing. They will hardly report further. A discussion would be possible in the sense of: "First the Turks made such a fuss and now they don't come and report anymore." Again this somewhat strange atmosphere. We're waiting for Zschäpe. The tension is visible. The cameramen and photographers have lined up and are waiting. However, the entire hall is more talkative than on Monday. The "awe" that seemed odd back then isn't so "penetrative" anymore.

9.35 a.m. Only the judges and Zschäpe are missing, they seem to want to take their time. (Matthias Reiche, MDR) Beate Zschäpe and Ralf Wohlleben are a long time coming.

9.46 a.m.Beate Zschäpe and Ralf Wohlleben now appear, this time in a light-colored suit and, like on the first day, with their backs to the joint plaintiffs and photographers. (Christoph Arnowski, BR)Wohlleben is in a good mood, faces the hall, entertains with his defenders, looks at the newspapers with them, laughs and smiles a lot, Zschäpe talks to their defenders. (Ayca Tolun, WDR) 9:50 a.m. Zschäpe there. The game on Monday: she is now with her back in her row of seats to the cameramen and photographers, talking face to face with her lawyers. The strange, almost reverent mood is back, but today there is more talking. Zschäpe with a lilac-colored ponytail Jacket with a white blouse, again in a pants suit, chic and looking like a young lawyer. (Hans Pfeifer, DW) The appearance of the defense attorneys: There is no communication between the different teams of the accused, only within. That was also the case on the first day of the trial. It looks like a strategy: all talk of a neo-Nazi network is nonsense. In the Zschäpe team, defender Anja Sturm always seems a little off the beaten path, like an accessory. Wolfgang Stahl and Wolfgang Heer don't particularly involve them in their conversations either. Sturm also sits a little apart in the dock. (Christoph Arnowski, Holger Schmidt) Determination of presence took about 10 minutes. Army requested to speak, joint prosecutor requested reading of the indictment, joint prosecutor requested speech on rejected bias application. Wohlleben defender Nicole Schneiders announces suspension and Application to be dismissed.Wohlleben defender Olaf Klemke wants to raise an occupation complaint.First exchange of blows between army and judge Manfred Götzl on the question of who has the floor and when: army wants to talk without wanting to explain the application in advance.Götzl: But you have to say what you want I want to. Army: I don't have to. Götzl: I'm in charge of the negotiation, I want to get to the personal details. The battle continues. Heer wants to change the room: "Negotiations are not allowed in this meeting room." Heer counters: "There is no such application." Heer is given the floor, but does not get to, because the joint prosecutor of the relatives of the murdered Halit Yozgat objects to this and tries to justify the application. Tiny tumult. (Christoph Arnowski, BR) 10:00 a.m. Thomas Bliwier (co-plaintiff lawyer Yozgat) requests the reading of the indictment, Heer intervenes; does not provide for the code of criminal procedure, says Heer. Bliwier continues with his proposal. Reason: Wohlleben's defense has only decided to change the reading of the indictment. Applications can be made at a later date, the procedure will take so long. 5 to 6 co-plaintiff attorneys join. Stahl recalls: On the last day of the hearing, we specified that we would not submit any further application for rejection, but would submit another application for public disclosure that could not be postponed (reason for appeal), after which you interrupted. Application to be dealt with urgently! Should be treated as early as possible. Klemke requests a copy of the Bliwier application "so that I can study it in peace and request a 15-minute break so that I can comment".

10.15 a.m. Heer advocates reasonable framework conditions, every colleague should be interested in reasonable publicity. Federal Prosecutor Herbert Diemer: The art of formulating the defense is obviously inexhaustible! Have we got samples now? Should now come because of the acceleration requirement for the reading of the indictment.

The session was suspended for ten minutes. (Hans Pfeifer, DW) A storm of motions in the courtroom. Carsten S. sits there almost apathetically. He doesn't look at anyone. Stares ahead. Has nothing ahead of him. The other defendants closely follow the ping-pong duels between the co-plaintiffs, defense attorneys and judges. Holger G. even takes notes from time to time. As the interruption begins, S. turns away from everyone. Talk to his defender. Even during the break there was no recognizable contact between the accused or between the defense teams. (Ayca Tolun, WDR) Zschäpe behaves like on Monday, chatting casually with her lawyers, drinking her coffee to go. The Turkish colleagues ponder their reporting: How should you bring this application legal process and then also according to German objectivity and German logic to the Turkish target group? Will it even be possible to find a place in the newspaper for the topic? Probably not, almost everyone is sure. How often do you have to be present in order not to lose the thread? Who actually tells you that you have understood everything correctly? (Holger Schmidt, SWR) 10:36 a.m. Heer gets the word. Klemke interjected: The application that was copied is not what the co-plaintiff said. Claiming that the defense is trying to delay and prevent the reading of the indictment is nonsense. Klemke: The co-plaintiff wants to set the mood. Apparently not enough discs have been thrown in yet. It's an attempt to muzzle the Wohlleben defense.

Interruption until 10.50 a.m. because the joint prosecutor objected to the floor being given. Schneiders says: medical problem at Wohlleben. (Christoph Arnowski, BR) 10.39 a.m.. Session interrupted again. (Christoph Arnowski, BR) It's still interrupted, actually it was supposed to continue at 10.50 a.m. What health problem G. is said to have cannot be seen from his face. E. is now reading the penal code for the second time. Wohlleben writes by hand in a folder he has in front of him. S. continues to be apathetic with his back to the audience. G. also take handwritten notes. Zschäpe speaks to Heer. (Ayca Tolun, WDR) 11:00 a.m. Zschäpe, sitting around for the first time without lawyers, always looks in the direction of André E., who is sitting three chairs away. He, in turn, keeps flirting with his twin brother up in the stands. Incidentally, the twin brother gets up during the breaks, stares at Zschäpe and/or his brother for long stretches. Mehmet Kilic (Greens MP) is in the room for a short time. He says he's also here "to deal with his own trauma". For him, the NSU murders are a kind of continuation of what the arson attack in Solingen triggered in him and the Turkish-born migrants 20 years ago: that in Germany there is indeed a "murderable right-wing extremism" and that it still exists there is no adequate debate about it. For Kilic, the NSU process could trigger exactly this debate. (Christoph Arnowski, BR) 11.04 a.m. Heer’s floor is confirmed, application appropriate at this point in time, otherwise parts of the main hearing would have to be repeated. Army: Restart with sufficient capacity enough seats for the public, if not: in the record: no more than 51 spectators and 50 press seats. Interruption of the hearing for two days to finally get documents for the lottery and to enable verification. Main hearing in the courtroom, limited capacity does not guarantee the principle of publicity, second accreditation procedure is also inadequate, hearing must be public, formative and fundamental institution of the rule of law, serves to inform the general public. Violation of the public is an absolute reason for revision and is not the responsibility of the negotiation leader.

The defense fails to recognize that security needs must be taken into account, because of the procedural importance, the principle that the court must move to a larger room must be deviated from.

Heer: Defense pointed out early in February that witness can only be seen frontally by the court. Proper questioning of witnesses will not be possible for the majority of those involved in the proceedings. Huber on March 15: The faces of the speaking participants in the trial will be seen on the projection. Non-verbal reactions and gestures by the witness remain hidden. Blushing and sweating in particular are of considerable importance for the assessment of a witness statement. The public cannot follow this. Area of ​​joint plaintiffs not visible to the public. Even from further back only a small part of the hall is visible. From the side areas at the very back, you can't even see the judges' bench.

Huber follows all this with a thoughtful face, standing on the gallery.

Army: Alternatives: World Conference Center in Bonn (former seat of the Bundestag), other premises would also have been suitable with the appropriate conversion work. Even if only some of the other potential joint plaintiffs joined the joint plaintiff, Room 101 would objectively be too small. Undisturbed internal communication by the defense would no longer be possible. A high number of joint plaintiffs was foreseeable from the start. In order to do justice to the principle of publicity, suspend the hearing and start again in another room. Accreditation procedures must be transparent.

30. April: Heer's application to make all files available. In a letter from the same day, Götzl: The procedure was transferred to the press office, so the files there. May: write again, this time to President Huber.3. May: Vice-President: After checking, one wants to decide whether access to files will be granted.10. May: Announcement: Access to the files in the court's rooms is possible, but according to Heer's statement it has not yet been possible. Checking is all the more necessary because the first method is so flawed. If the decision had been made in good time, an inspection would have been possible in the last week on the days set aside. Contrary to a statement by notary Meyer, there was no proper inspection. 927 media and media representatives had applied for accreditation. Defenders need two days because the material is too extensive. Judges can view strictly confidential documents from the defense. 10:40 a.m.: End of Heer’s application. (Matthias Reiche, MDR) Attorney Heer’s presentation ends after 40 minutes. Motions follow to finally read out the indictment and to deal with Zschäpe's motion later. Co-prosecutors point out that the interests of the co-prosecutors should also be at stake and that the indictment should be read out. Any further postponement would mean an inadmissible burden. Of the almost 80 joint plaintiffs, only about 10 are personally present on this second day of the hearing.

11.45 a.m. Lunch break until 1.30 p.m. (Christoph Arnowski, BR) Federal Prosecutor Diemer: Application will be rejected. The indictment should be read out. Sebastian Scharmer (co-plaintiff-lawyer for the relatives of the murdered Mehmet Kubasik): Application is admissible, but has no chance of success only 7 co-plaintiffs. Co-plaintiff lawyer for the relatives of the murdered Theodoros Boulgarides: Agree with the defense attorneys that benches may not be viewed by the court, important for fair proceedings. Reinhard Schön (co-plaintiff lawyer for the victims of the attack in Cologne's Keupstraße): Already empty seats on the spectator benches.Carsten Illius (lawyer Kubasik): First postponement was already a burden, apply for immediate continuation, ban on acceleration.

The session is interrupted, lunch break until 1.30 p.m. (Matthias Reiche, MDR) 1.40 p.m. Attorney for the co-plaintiff once again rejects the defense's request to change the room in a statement. Obviously belongs to the folklore of such processes that every lawyer would like to say something. Everything is waiting for the decision of the court on the suspension application. Before that, lawyer Heer has the floor again and once again provokes the judge, who now really opposes this for the first time. One gets an inkling that his long-suffering will not be infinite. It is now about where those defenders who are afraid that their screen can be seen can sit. One option would be to move one row further back. Lawyer Heer, however, suspects that they want to banish him to the side table.

(Christoph Arnowski, BR) 1:40 p.m. Khubaib-Ali Mohammed (counsel for the victims of the bomb attack in Cologne's Keupstraße): If you (defense attorney) only now express your concerns long after the inspection, the suspicion of the intention to delay the process arises . Regarding the suggestion of the World Conference Center: In view of the dimensions, the accused would be degraded to mere objects, and then intervention would probably take place because of violations of human rights. The defender's bench is almost always visible.Götzl: The two judges cannot see. To Heer: You can also sit further back in the second row. Heer: I didn't sit down at the side table, I would like to sit next to my client. There followed a battle of words Götzl/Heer. Heer: I have the floor. You don't have the floor. When I have the floor, I won't let myself be interrupted. I won't allow myself a tease. Götzl: Offers to project the co-plaintiffs larger. Co-plaintiff attorney: I don't mind being enlarged, but my client is coming tomorrow, she doesn't want to be seen. Heer: Why did you tell me that I see everything and it's different?Götzl: The defendants can't be seen either.Motion from the defense of Holger G.: The assistant officers of the public prosecutor's office should continue to slide, not sit directly on his lap.Sturm: The Federal Constitutional Court has not explicitly decide about this room. Reference in the applications completely irrelevant. Acceleration bid argues exclusively for the imprisoned client. In particular, it would not be reasonable for Zschäpe to read out the indictment twice in the event of the necessary repetition. Diemer: To refuse without reason, to make the public sufficiently public, is in accordance with the law. Public does not mean that everyone who is interested has to have access, it just has to be possible. Moving to a larger room or hall carries the risk of a show trial. The public must be able to perceive procedural events, not look them in the face. Non-verbal gestures do not have to be followed by the public, no German court has ever decided that. Laptop can simply be turned off. Access to files is granted and can be used at any time. No reason for interruption for two days. Regarding the testimony of the federal prosecutors: The decision was made, it was correct, has no influence on the assignment of blame. Army: Response: It's not just about publicity, it's about the hall and its unsuitability. I am surprised at the unsubstantiated position you take on my application. The public is a fundamental procedural principle.Götzl: Application is being discussed, continued at 2:15 p.m. (Holger Schmidt, SWR)Senate is discussing the application.The Federal Public Prosecutor considers it admissible, but unfounded.Flowers of style: Heer and Götzl are arguing about the word "cat table". Götzl suggested that Wohlleben could move further to the left. Laughter in the hall. Götzl is clearly trying to keep his composure. Army provoked with know-it-alls and the fight for the word. (Christoph Arnowski, BR) 2:20 p.m. Applications are rejected: both larger hall and interruption for two days. Justification: very legal, in plain language everyone does not have to under all circumstances at all times Have access, case law BGH and other OLG. Criminal trials take place in but not for the public. No obligation to use larger halls. The administration of justice allocated the hall to the court and made structural changes. Witness will be placed in such a way that all parties to the trial will see him. The public will be able to follow the procedure in the way that is necessary for those not directly involved. Defender's bank cannot be read. Heer is already waiting in order to be able to submit an application immediately, finger on the talk button. He wants to be given a reason so that he can then discuss it for 20 minutes because copying also takes a few minutes. Interrupted until 2.45 p.m. (Christoph Arnowski, BR) 2.55 p.m. Again a little battle of words.Army: I'll tell you what it's about if you give me the floor.Götzl. But I will not give you the floor. Counter-presentation to the decision of the Senate. It is requested that the chairman make an official statement on how the witnesses should be placed - plus a sketch. The defense has put forward why there are major concerns about accreditation. More can only be said after the files have been inspected. Stahl: My colleague Mohammed has listed another 60 possible joint plaintiffs based on the analysis of the files. Maybe in 3, 4, 6 weeks we will be so far that the room is no longer sufficient. Co-prosecutor Bliwier: Defense should be limited to the situation that is given now.Motion: Now continue with the process and start determining personal details. Army: You can make a motion when evidence begins, but of course we want to avoid unnecessary interruptions. Götzl explains the witness situation: That's not enough for me as official statements deferred. Heer makes another application, but does not say the content. Götzl seems indignant, it is about another application for the suspension of the proceedings, appointment of the federal prosecutor. Army: Certain representatives of the meeting are not suitable. Army: Complaint that you start interrogating the person want (without being able to submit applications). Götzl: I object to this. Heer: It is about applications that have to be made now. I apply again to submit applications now. Counseling, continued at 3:15 p.m. (Holger Schmidt, SWR) Determination of personal details. Zschäpe: no information, determinations from the file. André E.: name, date of birth and address. Then in a broad dialect: Maehr sohg isch nüsch, then Akte.Holger G.: Always confirms the information with yes and says at address: as in the file.Wohlleben: Nods to all information.Carsten S.: Says "yes" to all information ".Reading of the indictment by Diemer.(Ayca Tolun, WDR)3.45 p.m..Götzl asks Zschäpe about her personal details.Unrest in the hall. The first moment - at least for me - in which Beate Zschäpe could suddenly become alive, even suddenly real. So far she's somehow, despite her rather prominent appearance with business dress and her displayed relaxed mobility, a kind of reflection of herself. But it's only for a moment. Her lawyer says she will not comment on her personal details either. If she had talked, all of a sudden she would have become real. But she didn't, what a pity.Götzl reads out the personal details of the other four accused and has them confirmed. They each answer with a short "yes" - audibly, sometimes very Saxon, sometimes very jagged. Only two of them can be seen from the press gallery, but until now they too have felt more like a reflection of themselves, somehow not real either. Now they have a voice and - unlike Zschäpe - they feel real. (Christoph Arnowski, BR) Wohlleben reads his lawyer's folder, Zschäpe sits upright and looks at the federal prosecutor who is reading. No movement, she looks serious, her hands crossed on her thighs. Wohlleben and Holger G. have crossed their hands and arms on their chests, Carsten S. turned away again slightly. The prosecution describes the crimes with many details, so far no movements are visible in the accused , but also not with joint plaintiffs. (Matthias Reiche, MDR) 3:35 p.m. to 4:40 p.m. Reading of the indictment. Carsten S. and Wohlleben are aiding and abetting, Holger G. and André E. are aiding a terrorist organization, and E. is also aiding and abetting two murders. The main accused is Zschäpe, who is accused of being an accomplice. Zschäpe listens impassively to the reading of the indictment, giving the impression of having nothing to do with the crimes listed. Allegedly, Zschäpe always had the task of camouflage the travel movements of the two NSU murderers Mundlos and Böhnhardt. The DVD, which was distributed by Beate Zschäpe after the death of her comrades, is considered proof that all crimes can be attributed to the NSU. Beate Zschäpe is also accused of involvement in robberies and bank robberies, extortion and attempted murder. In the case of Zschäpe, the Federal Prosecutor's Office considers preventive detention to be appropriate. (Paul-Elmar Jöris, WDR) 4.35 p.m. Reading of the indictment. At first, Zschäpe evidently reads along on the PC while Diemer is presenting: ten murders, two bomb attacks, 15 bank robberies, arson in a particularly serious case. Holger G. Support. Zschäpe came to an agreement with Böhnhardt and Mundlos to form a union. After going into hiding, they sealed themselves off from their surroundings. Bank robberies for funding. According to the motto: "Actions not words". Marked by using the same weapon series. Were totally dependent on each other. In 2002 in a letter to scene magazines they used the name "NSU". In pursuit of their goals, they killed eight people of Turkish origin and one of Greek origin. Zschäpe was involved in planning the crimes (cell phone rings in the auditorium). Bombings served their racist ideology, Keupstraße injured at least 18 people. Finally, violence against the police: gunshots at two officers from behind a patrol car in Heilbronn, shots in the head from a very short distance. Beate Zschäpe later distributed 15 copies. Zschäpe's task during robberies: legend of the absence of Mundlos/Böhnhardt. management money.After the defendant found out about the death of Mundlos/Böhnhardt, she set fire to the apartment. Set fire to destroy evidence as per previous agreement. Left the apartment without rescue efforts and took DVD with "Paulchen Panther" film. (Christoph Arnowski, BR) Interrupted until 5 p.m. (Ayca Tolun, WDR) Admittedly, given the current situation, it may be a luxury problem, but it is annoying and still very uncomfortable. The judge can't even pronounce one of the victims' names correctly (applies to Turkish, Persian and Arabic alike). It is also immediately clear that there has never been any effort in this direction. After all, there is the possibility of transcribing the names into phonetic transcription. I seriously ask myself, with such a series of murders, with so much government failure: Isn't it the least that the judge/court pronounces the victims' names correctly or shows a serious effort? Turkish names are now in Germany in the third generation . Three generations of Germans grew up with Turkish names at school and in everyday life. What if the names were not Turkish (Persian or Arabic) but English, French or Israeli names? How much unconscious non-appreciation is behind it? (Matthias Reiche, MDR) In view of a possibly growing number of joint plaintiffs, Judge Götzl is bringing a separation of the proceedings for the Keupstraße bomb attack into play, joint plaintiffs should comment on this by Wednesday. Wohlleben's attorney Klemke brings an application for appointments against two additional judges. Zschäpe's attorney Sturm also now brings an appointment complaint against two additional judges. The press gallery is slowly clearing. If the whole process goes like this, public interest will soon dwindle and the public will turn away.

That's it for today.

Note

These texts are a selection of the transcripts of the ARD and BR reporters during the central days of the negotiations in the so-called "NSU trial", an unprecedented trial in German legal history. We document this "original tone" because in the German practice of criminal procedural law, even with such important proceedings, there are no official and comprehensive court minutes. In doing so, we are fulfilling our obligation to provide information in order to give everyone who did not get one of the coveted seats in the courtroom an impression of the events of the trial - which may well be subjective. The summaries of the so-called "room information" from our reporters have been edited, some have been shortened. There is no claim to completeness and of course no guarantee can be given for the correctness of every single word. The editors expressly distance themselves from the content of the statements made by the process participants.